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Achernar's avatar

And...I'm back.

The description of the gypsy society is certainly interesting. I would even go that far that I'm familiar with most of the terms. What would be interesting to me is the actual groupings of them and if there's any great differences between the gypsies in the Regat and in the formed Kingdom of Hungary? Because some things were played out differently in the two parts and there are clear consequences for some of the happenings.

As you pointed out, we can't be sure when exactly they arrived, what we know is, that by the rule of king/emperor Sigismund, they were already here. One of the theories I heard was that they were brought over by Timur as camp followers/slaves but the time between that and the first written evidence of them seems too short for me(1402 Battle of Ankara<->1417 first evidence for them in Hungary)

Where things really start to unravel is the 18. century.

Maria Theresa and Joseph II are associated with the Regulatio Cigarorum decrees. In the late 18th century, the forced integration and assimilation of the Roma people began.

On November 13, 1761, Maria Theresa issued a decree prohibiting the use of the term "Gypsy" to refer to the Roma people and mandated the use of new designations: new settlers, new Hungarians, or new peasants (in German: Neubauer).(History is truly cyclical...how are our new europeans?) On November 27, 1767, she banned marriages between Roma individuals. She also ordered the semi-annual census of "new peasants" and prohibited the consumption of carrion meat(this...is still happening. Less and less though.), imposing penalties for violations.

From the early 19th century, the second major wave of Roma migration reached Hungary. During this period, the ancestors of the present-day Vlach(Oláh) Roma and Beás(Bayash) arrived from the Romanian principalities. They were again following the wandering lifestyle and were settled by the commies.

I think you see the problem here, today there are at least 6 different groups of gypsies in the country and even more in Romania as I know. I could go around all the 6 or more, but I only ever met with 4 of them and those are the

1. Romungro: they are the most common and around 75-80% of them here. And it is known, that many of them in the former realm belong to this group. Their main language is Hungarian(!) and most of the times they don't speak their original language.

2. Oláh(Vlach): they don't like to be called that because for many that means that they are the worst. (I beg to differ. In my opinion it is the Romungros). Their main language is the lovari.

3. Beás: their language is archaic romanian(!).

4. Gábor: okay...these guys are on point. They are mostly wealthy. They live in Romania around Targu Mures. They speak all three languages but prefer hungarian. I don't know how true this is, but I read that they identify themselves as Hungarians in the census. Big hats, setting up their markets everywhere. Strictly endogamous. Put them here because I think they are very interesting and clearly the most well-adjusted group from all, even if there's only a few of them.

There are no king of romas in Hungary, you can hear about some voivods time to time. And you can be sure that those are...not the Romungros. While the other groups clearly show signs of an existing hierarchy, elite...call it what you want...there's almost nothing for the Romungros. Well...they group themselves around criminals(usurers) or being controlled from the outside(politicians, teachers(actually they still have a huge respect for them) or whoever can play them. The characteristics of what you described are clearly there for them, but there's rarely any ingroup preference beyond family members(that can get pretty big admittedly). Yes, the other groups might also lack some baro or voivod but they are able to organise themselves and they clearly prefer their 'own' while not mixing with the Romungros (some always happens of course...but minimal) and I would even say that they are antagonistic with them.

They also have different income sources. Just yesterday I was talking with one of my friends about this. The Gábor are the merchant caste, the Oláh are the carrion feeders(and I don't mean this derogatively), the Beás are the bottom feeders(again...an important function) and the Romungro are the parasites. Obviously they all live with the blessings of the social assistances and you could find criminals from any of them(maybe not from tha Gábor), but that is the Romungros job.

What crimes? Theft, robbing, burglary mostly and the most lucrative one, that even made the Romungros in my hometown to organise: prostitution.

I think you can see where I'm going with this. The Romungros are already a mixed group (regarding ancestry/genealogy) and they are constantly bringing in new genetic material in their population. And oh boy...is there a mixing going on? They also using blackmail to get alimony from some of the fathers. I once saw one of the class register and saw among the names of fathers, some I would have never imagine.(but this might deserve it's own post)

So just looking at them, you can tell if someone is an Oláh, Beás or Romungro(?). As one of my parents told me..."You wouldn't believe how many blonde, blue eyed gypsy kids are there."

(I might continue it here but I spent a lot of time with this one too)

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James the Hun's avatar

Christ, that neck! This escalated really quickly. Seriously, though: this topic does make me somewhat uncomfortable -- I suppose I've just been conditioned that way -- yet it explains a great deal about the "Roma" population in Hungary, too, as I have seen many of the traits, trends, and tribulations among the locals related to what you describe (and break down in excruciating detail, I might add!)

As I'm sure I said before, these intermarrying trends are perhaps on the rise here in Magyaroszág, but most of the magyarok (Hungarians) are really at odds with their culture. It is odd, however, that they do not wish to speak of this reality except behind closed doors and oft-exchanged pained glances and moments of mutual agreement.

On the flipside, I must draw attention to certain segments of the local "Roma" population that have indeed integrated and donned Hungarian values, I imagine much to the chagrin of their peers. These conversations are not difficult to overhear and seem to happen often in public spaces. The Roma who, in fact, do exhibit conformism to the 'seven Cs' are growing, but the other kind are still ubiquitous in the country's more dangerous areas, some of which even exist in the capital. And while it is anecdotal, I really cannot stress how many daily interactions I've had with both groups, making this issue somewhat confounding. Still, I'll not lie: I share the sentiments of the Hungarians themselves for the most part; which is to say that I worry about the impact the Roma who separate themselves and are undoubtedly responsible for all of the crime occurring in Eastern Hungary -- or so I'm told.

On an interactional level I try to be kind, but a vigilant eye discerning certain realities is not to be cast off so lightly.

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