The description of the gypsy society is certainly interesting. I would even go that far that I'm familiar with most of the terms. What would be interesting to me is the actual groupings of them and if there's any great differences between the gypsies in the Regat and in the formed Kingdom of Hungary? Because some things were played out differently in the two parts and there are clear consequences for some of the happenings.
As you pointed out, we can't be sure when exactly they arrived, what we know is, that by the rule of king/emperor Sigismund, they were already here. One of the theories I heard was that they were brought over by Timur as camp followers/slaves but the time between that and the first written evidence of them seems too short for me(1402 Battle of Ankara<->1417 first evidence for them in Hungary)
Where things really start to unravel is the 18. century.
Maria Theresa and Joseph II are associated with the Regulatio Cigarorum decrees. In the late 18th century, the forced integration and assimilation of the Roma people began.
On November 13, 1761, Maria Theresa issued a decree prohibiting the use of the term "Gypsy" to refer to the Roma people and mandated the use of new designations: new settlers, new Hungarians, or new peasants (in German: Neubauer).(History is truly cyclical...how are our new europeans?) On November 27, 1767, she banned marriages between Roma individuals. She also ordered the semi-annual census of "new peasants" and prohibited the consumption of carrion meat(this...is still happening. Less and less though.), imposing penalties for violations.
From the early 19th century, the second major wave of Roma migration reached Hungary. During this period, the ancestors of the present-day Vlach(Oláh) Roma and Beás(Bayash) arrived from the Romanian principalities. They were again following the wandering lifestyle and were settled by the commies.
I think you see the problem here, today there are at least 6 different groups of gypsies in the country and even more in Romania as I know. I could go around all the 6 or more, but I only ever met with 4 of them and those are the
1. Romungro: they are the most common and around 75-80% of them here. And it is known, that many of them in the former realm belong to this group. Their main language is Hungarian(!) and most of the times they don't speak their original language.
2. Oláh(Vlach): they don't like to be called that because for many that means that they are the worst. (I beg to differ. In my opinion it is the Romungros). Their main language is the lovari.
3. Beás: their language is archaic romanian(!).
4. Gábor: okay...these guys are on point. They are mostly wealthy. They live in Romania around Targu Mures. They speak all three languages but prefer hungarian. I don't know how true this is, but I read that they identify themselves as Hungarians in the census. Big hats, setting up their markets everywhere. Strictly endogamous. Put them here because I think they are very interesting and clearly the most well-adjusted group from all, even if there's only a few of them.
There are no king of romas in Hungary, you can hear about some voivods time to time. And you can be sure that those are...not the Romungros. While the other groups clearly show signs of an existing hierarchy, elite...call it what you want...there's almost nothing for the Romungros. Well...they group themselves around criminals(usurers) or being controlled from the outside(politicians, teachers(actually they still have a huge respect for them) or whoever can play them. The characteristics of what you described are clearly there for them, but there's rarely any ingroup preference beyond family members(that can get pretty big admittedly). Yes, the other groups might also lack some baro or voivod but they are able to organise themselves and they clearly prefer their 'own' while not mixing with the Romungros (some always happens of course...but minimal) and I would even say that they are antagonistic with them.
They also have different income sources. Just yesterday I was talking with one of my friends about this. The Gábor are the merchant caste, the Oláh are the carrion feeders(and I don't mean this derogatively), the Beás are the bottom feeders(again...an important function) and the Romungro are the parasites. Obviously they all live with the blessings of the social assistances and you could find criminals from any of them(maybe not from tha Gábor), but that is the Romungros job.
What crimes? Theft, robbing, burglary mostly and the most lucrative one, that even made the Romungros in my hometown to organise: prostitution.
I think you can see where I'm going with this. The Romungros are already a mixed group (regarding ancestry/genealogy) and they are constantly bringing in new genetic material in their population. And oh boy...is there a mixing going on? They also using blackmail to get alimony from some of the fathers. I once saw one of the class register and saw among the names of fathers, some I would have never imagine.(but this might deserve it's own post)
So just looking at them, you can tell if someone is an Oláh, Beás or Romungro(?). As one of my parents told me..."You wouldn't believe how many blonde, blue eyed gypsy kids are there."
(I might continue it here but I spent a lot of time with this one too)
'What would be interesting to me is the actual groupings of them and if there's any great differences between the gypsies in the Regat and in the formed Kingdom of Hungary?'
I...don't know. Everything you say about the various castes/tribes is new to me and extreme interdasting. I will say though that I once had a bunch of Gypsies come and collect a large amount of decking that I no longer needed. They were extremely small and extremely dark, like Morgul rats. Most of the other Gypsies I see are much larger and sort of caramel coloured. I took these little ones to belong to a low hereditary caste--maybe your Beas...
'On November 27, 1767, she banned marriages between Roma individuals.'
Waow...I never knew this either. From this one might conclude that miscegenation goes back (in Greater Hungary) a lot further than I thought. But then again maybe not: I see a good deal of room to doubt that these decrees were ever heeded. Also, as far as I can tell, in Old Romania the races remained separate because of caste differentiation (Romanians = peasants, Gypsies = carftsmen, thieves, animal trainers etc).
Yes prostitution a big one here too. I forgot mention sorry...
"You wouldn't believe how many blonde, blue eyed gypsy kids are there."
It's similarly well-known in Romania that the Gypsies are thieves of property *and* persons.
Ooh...I got ahead of myself, but just to address the things left.
Yes, the gypsy gene is absolutely superior. If you saw how they live sometimes, you know what I'm speaking of. I would pass away in some ebola/black plague/big cough combo in weeks. They are indestructible.
Yes, the miscegenation is happening and it's becoming even more frequent. For my greatest surprise, some pretty high class women also admitted to sleeping with them...but mostly it's Gypsy women with Hungarian men.
You also have the "white gypsies". They are not gypsies by blood, but acting/living like that. They are also slowly merging with the blob. But you can still see the problem. The look test is increasingly not enough, the women sometimes get surprised that the guy is in fact, a gypsy.
I would say that there's an informal 'one-drop rule'. As James mentioned, most of the Hungarians want nothing to do with them(only as prostitutes huehuehue), so if someone could get away with it, they would rather keep their ancestry as a secret. Except if they rise high enough because it's not low and ewww anymore, but special, exotic etc..
I always presumed that the Budapest disdain and suspicousness for Hungarians from the Eastern countryside comes from this. I was too asked if I have some gypsy in me not once.(Nah, I'm mostly Rusyn with some Hungarian and one Transylvanian Saxon great-great grandmother from Kronstadt/Brassó/Brasov/Orașul Stalin).
So if you have gypsy in you, you are much more likely to go down the gypsy way.
Was there anything else? Oh, right...I would say that at least 700.000. But just like you said, it's hard to know. The Romungros gipsy identity in self identification is also flaky at best. Sometimes they are this, sometimes that. I know that in my home county, at least 35% of the children in public education are them (and I would say that it goes up to at least 60-70% in my hometown). So you can see how do I know that much about them.
Regarding the names, we have a list for approved names so you can't name your kid just anything. They do make a list every year what was approved to be included and what was not. The hilarious stuff are mostly there. And the Mercedes was named after the founders daughter so that one's legit(yeah...they were thinking about the car).
Otherwise their names are either the most basic (József->Joseph, Sándor->Alexander...),
The most exotic they can find...plus points if it's impossible for the kid to write it down(Dzsesszika->Jessica,Celesztia->Celestia, Rubina etc.)
A few greek names because the movie 300 and Troy is really popular among them...I'm serious(Leonidász, Hektor, Herkules)
The actual popular soap operas on the television. In the past they were Brazilians and Mexicans(Rikárdó, Eszmeralda), nowadays the Turkish soap operas are the cool ones(I don't remember any right now but I see in the town newspapers among the newborns.)
My oath they are; they're also vectors of disease.
'So you can see how do I know that much about them.'
Indeed--you should consider putting all this into a proper poast.
It's interesting and v healthy that there is a list of approved names in Hungary. The ones you mention are v funny and I think somehwat different in their range (if not their spirit) from those used in Romania. The missus' mum worked in public hospitals for many years and has seen/heard it all.
'I would say that at least 700.000.'
THIS MANY? Is that tribal Gypsies only, or 'assimilated' half-breeds included? I was trying to be cautious in my own estimate but it's pretty obvious that there must be at least a million tribal Rom in Romania--and I do mean AT LEAST...
'if someone could get away with it, they would rather keep their ancestry as a secret. Except if they rise high enough because it's not low and ewww anymore, but special, exotic etc..'
It's the same here more or less. One difference maybe is that there's a sort of informal 'don't ask, don't tell' policy. If you don't act like a Gypsy, you're acceptable in most company.
Oh...certainly. Remember that I seen once of the subway that Hungary was put back as hepatitis dangerous(or something like that) country. Not long before that my hometown had a full blown hepatitis pandemic with hundreds of cases. But there's always something going on there.
I wanted to collect and write about these things(as I said...it's a little bit of taboo over here), but that will need to be more organised. And also some scientific background/theory possibly. Might use tidbits from here tho.
In the 90's it was estimated to be 500k. Their number only grew, but the self identification of the romungros doesn't help. And also as I mentioned, they are a very mixed group so you might only notice with some after they start talking. We also didn't export them. (I think one of the main reasons why the emigration from Hungary was a little bit lighter, because the language is that different and you have to learn a wholly new system. Many leftists still blaming the right for the tragic numbers, but looking at the other post-commie countries we're pretty good.)
To be honest, the Beás(bayash, baiash, banyash) are the ones I know the least about. They're mostly in the Transdanubia. I do speak sometimes with a homeless guy who is always crowding by the church I go to every sunday. He and his friends are kinda little too and when he spoke with his wife I didn't understand it. (I can't speak lovari at all, but I once freaked out some Oláhs who were talking me out that I understand what they are saying. I would say I get 50% percent what they are saying that can go up to 70-80% with context...I'm digressing again). They actually work sometimes for the city public sanitation moving and gathering the trash. And generally they "make a living"/get earnings from filtering through others refuse/trash. That's what I meant with bottom-feeders. Now with the new bottle return system their job got harder tho. So by your description I think they might have been Beás.
The mixing part is always hard to tell. What is sure, that there was and is. The romungros almost never look fully gypsy. The Oláh's and Beás generally have a darker skin color too.
I think I will return to the prostitution part because they build a whole industry with it.
But with the not gypsy looking kids. One of the prostitutes got together with a chinese because she said that the kid is his and he accepted. They don't live together but with family reunion he got an EU citizenship and always bring his "family" good stuff because he's doing business. While the kid is clearly not his. How do I know? Because there is another who is clearly asian...lol. There is also a black(african) gypsy who...looks african(you couldn't tell that his mother is one). Also my mother said that the african is the smartest in his class. That raises additional questions. (Well...it is just a single instance so not that much)
For a last one here, I put this because I think this is where it fits the subject. Yes, it's a meme video. The translation is correct from the original(and this way someone who knows english can understand it too) which you can quickly find.
This is...when a gypsy tells you (mostly) the truth. You can never believe them fully. Everything is exaggerated, whatever they say must be divided by 10 and you will be closer to reality.
(And also observe...Leonidas...300...they will stop the enemy...I'm not sure how conscious that was.)
Christ, that neck! This escalated really quickly. Seriously, though: this topic does make me somewhat uncomfortable -- I suppose I've just been conditioned that way -- yet it explains a great deal about the "Roma" population in Hungary, too, as I have seen many of the traits, trends, and tribulations among the locals related to what you describe (and break down in excruciating detail, I might add!)
As I'm sure I said before, these intermarrying trends are perhaps on the rise here in Magyaroszág, but most of the magyarok (Hungarians) are really at odds with their culture. It is odd, however, that they do not wish to speak of this reality except behind closed doors and oft-exchanged pained glances and moments of mutual agreement.
On the flipside, I must draw attention to certain segments of the local "Roma" population that have indeed integrated and donned Hungarian values, I imagine much to the chagrin of their peers. These conversations are not difficult to overhear and seem to happen often in public spaces. The Roma who, in fact, do exhibit conformism to the 'seven Cs' are growing, but the other kind are still ubiquitous in the country's more dangerous areas, some of which even exist in the capital. And while it is anecdotal, I really cannot stress how many daily interactions I've had with both groups, making this issue somewhat confounding. Still, I'll not lie: I share the sentiments of the Hungarians themselves for the most part; which is to say that I worry about the impact the Roma who separate themselves and are undoubtedly responsible for all of the crime occurring in Eastern Hungary -- or so I'm told.
On an interactional level I try to be kind, but a vigilant eye discerning certain realities is not to be cast off so lightly.
Thank you sir for reading and commenting so thoughtfully
Yes I think Gypsies are the same everywhere in the most important respects: moral particularism/us vs them/thieving & lying--things like that...
Equally, as you say, there are Gypsies everywhere who leave the group, intermarry and assimilate culturally (normally to the lowest common denominator). Some, however, dress in mufti and drop the Gypsy speech ticks but otherwise remain tribal by allegiance. This has the effect of blurring perceptions of who is committed to the host population and who is not, engendering in turn *even lower* interpersonal trust among the general populace. This at least is my theory; I have no way of testing it. Are Hungarians low on social trust among themselves too? Is there a lot of Gypsy music in the ether?
In my opinion, EU membership has been an unmitigated qualitative L for Romania. It has massively lowered the tone by handing pop cultural hegemony over to the Gypsies and, for lack of worthier models, distorted Romanian mores. Some rightists are apt to sniff at 'pop culture'; but it matters to the masses, and if rightists care about them it should matter to rightists too. Pop culture is never high culture, but trying to raise the tone of the former is an objective worth pursuing.
In my reckoning it would have been socially more desirable had the barriers remained up, though I find it hard to hold anything against against individuals who wish to adopt 'enlightened' postmodern ugliness in place of benighted premodern ugliness. If nothing else, I sympathise with their disorientation. But racial mixing is still ugly to the emotional part of my brain, and I am saddened when I see its results. There's so much of it, and it seems only to be intensifying.
It's not easy to respond to this partly because outwardly I don't really talk about it or care about these people on a basic level. They're just kind of *there*. However uncomfortable it may make me or "us" (us being "Hungarians", I suppose) feel, however, yes -- there is an unknown quality to their "allegiance" in a greater sense.
The Hungarians I move with are high on social trust on an intrapersonal level. They live in tight-knit communities, value family highly, and show mutual respect for each other.
They regard almost all Gypsies with the utmost cynicism, prejudice, and irreverent humour. They will rarely if ever talk about these realities in polite company, and in some circles, doing so is considered gauche. Since men don't necessarily fall into the category of "polite company" (conversations tend to be more honest and can even get dark), I've had a lot of banter with locals where they will freely admit they abhor the Gypsies, and will trust them with absolutely nothing.
In some ways, this dynamic mirrors the dynamics I grew up around regarding the native population in NZ, who make up approximately fifteen percent of the population and fifty-two percent of the prison population. But... socioeconomics, mirite? (remember when the leftists bandied that term around endlessly?)
Perhaps the single starkest difference is that Hungary is interested in no way in catering to the Gypsies, whereas New Zealand has bent over backwards for the Maoris since the beginning of my lifetime. These two groups are extremely disparate also. The Maori people have a tonne of redeemable qualities, while the Gypsies -- at least the unintegrated ones -- not so much. The vast majority of the ones I know to be integrated are women, anyway; this is unsurprising, IMO, since women tend to be more socially adaptive. As always, it is the men who have a proclivity for the bad stuff, as is the case with any demographic to varying degrees.
On a fundamental level, I have no problem with "racial mixing." I nearly married an Indian girl back in the day, and I don't really have any thoughts about it being ugly -- that's just the truth. One of the things I like the most about this post is the honesty without malice; I come to Substack in some ways to escape the endless lying, peacocking, and status games that are present in just about everyone's lives. In short, it's nice to speak plainly with people who write well and don't believe in ridiculous ideas that are characteristic of their failures in life.
In many ways, I see "race-mixing" it as an unproductive thing to care about: we still live in a society, certain trends are popular, and my introspective thoughts about them are irrelevant. People will do what they do; what we are witnessing now in these terms is just a marker of liberal societies in the modern age (something even Romania and Hungary couldn't escape.)
Perhaps interestingly, I see American cultural Imperialism as the fundamental driver of all this. But that's a long, long conversation -- one suited to a forthcoming essay I'll be writing, no doubt.
As always, the exchange is appreciated, good Achilles. (:
'They regard almost all Gypsies with the utmost cynicism, prejudice, and irreverent humour. They will rarely if ever talk about these realities in polite company, and in some circles, doing so is considered gauche.'
In Romania the vast majority of people, not excluding 'liberals', talk freely to anybody about their dislike of and contempt for the Gypsies. The difference with Hungary is interesting, especially because Hungary is supposed to be the European bastion of based. To me divergences in attitudes of this sort suggest underlying civilisational differences. Hungary is basically Western, meaning maintenance of the 'moral community' (achieved by shunning open consensus-dissenters) is important. Romania is not Western, so that stuff doesn't matter.
'The vast majority of the ones I know to be integrated are women, anyway; this is unsurprising, IMO, since women tend to be more socially adaptive. As always, it is the men who have a proclivity for the bad stuff, as is the case with any demographic to varying degrees.'
Yes it's the same here.
'As always, the exchange is appreciated, good Achilles. (:'
"Romania is not Western, so that stuff doesn't matter." -- Hungary is very close genetically and culturally to the Balkans. Sharp Western/Eastern divide is Huntingtonian ignorance.
"EU membership has been an unmitigated qualitative L for Romania" -- Yes, because if Romania would have not entered in the EU like Serbia and Ukraine they would have totally whipped out Czechoslovak-style-forced sterilization and nobody could have forced them otherwise.
Just look at based Russia that is not in the EU, not even in NATO. No immigration, no cultural and genetic assimilation of Caucasians and Central Asians etc.
How can you think that without the EU all this wouldn't have happened even FASTER (more gypsies would have stayed in place rather than emigrate)?
Btw, I have noticed that many NGO prog causes are sponsored by the triad or Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein. I will repeat myself, but the EU is not inherently the problem, not even "leftism" (see the Czechoslovakian example).
"Anti-racism" is the Zeitgeist ideology. It's much larger than the EU.
And I think you are completely wrong. The access to Western markets that happened in the post-2000s and consequently the economic growth made the deal SWEETER. Prosperity and a modicum of personal freedom make multiculturalism easier to bear in the long-term, not harder. Look at European (statist) vs. the USian (liberal) model and see that, despite lower immigration %, the US is dealing better with "coexistence" than W. Europe. Or even better, look at Russia that brilliantly managed to combine the WORSE of BOTH worlds: no borders with Central Asia and the Caucasus, no significant increase in prosperity beyond Moscow and St. Petersburg compared to the EU part of CEE coupled with a much higher crackdown on dissident speech (and deeds).
There's nothing striking about Djuvara's deed. He went from a far-right sympathizer in his youth to a staunch supporter of anti-national causes. "Trad", lol.
My impression--I could be wrong--is that he became an ecumenical Traditionalist (ie Perennialist) in the Huxleyan/Guenonian sense: 'we're all one in the one and the one is love'. Perennialists regard nationalism as a product of the fall from gold to bronze to iron (alt. Kali Yuga) or whatever.
I stand corrected of course if I've mischaraterised his beliefs. But either way he was a sell-out.
And...I'm back.
The description of the gypsy society is certainly interesting. I would even go that far that I'm familiar with most of the terms. What would be interesting to me is the actual groupings of them and if there's any great differences between the gypsies in the Regat and in the formed Kingdom of Hungary? Because some things were played out differently in the two parts and there are clear consequences for some of the happenings.
As you pointed out, we can't be sure when exactly they arrived, what we know is, that by the rule of king/emperor Sigismund, they were already here. One of the theories I heard was that they were brought over by Timur as camp followers/slaves but the time between that and the first written evidence of them seems too short for me(1402 Battle of Ankara<->1417 first evidence for them in Hungary)
Where things really start to unravel is the 18. century.
Maria Theresa and Joseph II are associated with the Regulatio Cigarorum decrees. In the late 18th century, the forced integration and assimilation of the Roma people began.
On November 13, 1761, Maria Theresa issued a decree prohibiting the use of the term "Gypsy" to refer to the Roma people and mandated the use of new designations: new settlers, new Hungarians, or new peasants (in German: Neubauer).(History is truly cyclical...how are our new europeans?) On November 27, 1767, she banned marriages between Roma individuals. She also ordered the semi-annual census of "new peasants" and prohibited the consumption of carrion meat(this...is still happening. Less and less though.), imposing penalties for violations.
From the early 19th century, the second major wave of Roma migration reached Hungary. During this period, the ancestors of the present-day Vlach(Oláh) Roma and Beás(Bayash) arrived from the Romanian principalities. They were again following the wandering lifestyle and were settled by the commies.
I think you see the problem here, today there are at least 6 different groups of gypsies in the country and even more in Romania as I know. I could go around all the 6 or more, but I only ever met with 4 of them and those are the
1. Romungro: they are the most common and around 75-80% of them here. And it is known, that many of them in the former realm belong to this group. Their main language is Hungarian(!) and most of the times they don't speak their original language.
2. Oláh(Vlach): they don't like to be called that because for many that means that they are the worst. (I beg to differ. In my opinion it is the Romungros). Their main language is the lovari.
3. Beás: their language is archaic romanian(!).
4. Gábor: okay...these guys are on point. They are mostly wealthy. They live in Romania around Targu Mures. They speak all three languages but prefer hungarian. I don't know how true this is, but I read that they identify themselves as Hungarians in the census. Big hats, setting up their markets everywhere. Strictly endogamous. Put them here because I think they are very interesting and clearly the most well-adjusted group from all, even if there's only a few of them.
There are no king of romas in Hungary, you can hear about some voivods time to time. And you can be sure that those are...not the Romungros. While the other groups clearly show signs of an existing hierarchy, elite...call it what you want...there's almost nothing for the Romungros. Well...they group themselves around criminals(usurers) or being controlled from the outside(politicians, teachers(actually they still have a huge respect for them) or whoever can play them. The characteristics of what you described are clearly there for them, but there's rarely any ingroup preference beyond family members(that can get pretty big admittedly). Yes, the other groups might also lack some baro or voivod but they are able to organise themselves and they clearly prefer their 'own' while not mixing with the Romungros (some always happens of course...but minimal) and I would even say that they are antagonistic with them.
They also have different income sources. Just yesterday I was talking with one of my friends about this. The Gábor are the merchant caste, the Oláh are the carrion feeders(and I don't mean this derogatively), the Beás are the bottom feeders(again...an important function) and the Romungro are the parasites. Obviously they all live with the blessings of the social assistances and you could find criminals from any of them(maybe not from tha Gábor), but that is the Romungros job.
What crimes? Theft, robbing, burglary mostly and the most lucrative one, that even made the Romungros in my hometown to organise: prostitution.
I think you can see where I'm going with this. The Romungros are already a mixed group (regarding ancestry/genealogy) and they are constantly bringing in new genetic material in their population. And oh boy...is there a mixing going on? They also using blackmail to get alimony from some of the fathers. I once saw one of the class register and saw among the names of fathers, some I would have never imagine.(but this might deserve it's own post)
So just looking at them, you can tell if someone is an Oláh, Beás or Romungro(?). As one of my parents told me..."You wouldn't believe how many blonde, blue eyed gypsy kids are there."
(I might continue it here but I spent a lot of time with this one too)
'What would be interesting to me is the actual groupings of them and if there's any great differences between the gypsies in the Regat and in the formed Kingdom of Hungary?'
I...don't know. Everything you say about the various castes/tribes is new to me and extreme interdasting. I will say though that I once had a bunch of Gypsies come and collect a large amount of decking that I no longer needed. They were extremely small and extremely dark, like Morgul rats. Most of the other Gypsies I see are much larger and sort of caramel coloured. I took these little ones to belong to a low hereditary caste--maybe your Beas...
'On November 27, 1767, she banned marriages between Roma individuals.'
Waow...I never knew this either. From this one might conclude that miscegenation goes back (in Greater Hungary) a lot further than I thought. But then again maybe not: I see a good deal of room to doubt that these decrees were ever heeded. Also, as far as I can tell, in Old Romania the races remained separate because of caste differentiation (Romanians = peasants, Gypsies = carftsmen, thieves, animal trainers etc).
Yes prostitution a big one here too. I forgot mention sorry...
"You wouldn't believe how many blonde, blue eyed gypsy kids are there."
It's similarly well-known in Romania that the Gypsies are thieves of property *and* persons.
Ooh...I got ahead of myself, but just to address the things left.
Yes, the gypsy gene is absolutely superior. If you saw how they live sometimes, you know what I'm speaking of. I would pass away in some ebola/black plague/big cough combo in weeks. They are indestructible.
Yes, the miscegenation is happening and it's becoming even more frequent. For my greatest surprise, some pretty high class women also admitted to sleeping with them...but mostly it's Gypsy women with Hungarian men.
You also have the "white gypsies". They are not gypsies by blood, but acting/living like that. They are also slowly merging with the blob. But you can still see the problem. The look test is increasingly not enough, the women sometimes get surprised that the guy is in fact, a gypsy.
I would say that there's an informal 'one-drop rule'. As James mentioned, most of the Hungarians want nothing to do with them(only as prostitutes huehuehue), so if someone could get away with it, they would rather keep their ancestry as a secret. Except if they rise high enough because it's not low and ewww anymore, but special, exotic etc..
I always presumed that the Budapest disdain and suspicousness for Hungarians from the Eastern countryside comes from this. I was too asked if I have some gypsy in me not once.(Nah, I'm mostly Rusyn with some Hungarian and one Transylvanian Saxon great-great grandmother from Kronstadt/Brassó/Brasov/Orașul Stalin).
So if you have gypsy in you, you are much more likely to go down the gypsy way.
Was there anything else? Oh, right...I would say that at least 700.000. But just like you said, it's hard to know. The Romungros gipsy identity in self identification is also flaky at best. Sometimes they are this, sometimes that. I know that in my home county, at least 35% of the children in public education are them (and I would say that it goes up to at least 60-70% in my hometown). So you can see how do I know that much about them.
Regarding the names, we have a list for approved names so you can't name your kid just anything. They do make a list every year what was approved to be included and what was not. The hilarious stuff are mostly there. And the Mercedes was named after the founders daughter so that one's legit(yeah...they were thinking about the car).
Otherwise their names are either the most basic (József->Joseph, Sándor->Alexander...),
The most exotic they can find...plus points if it's impossible for the kid to write it down(Dzsesszika->Jessica,Celesztia->Celestia, Rubina etc.)
A few greek names because the movie 300 and Troy is really popular among them...I'm serious(Leonidász, Hektor, Herkules)
The actual popular soap operas on the television. In the past they were Brazilians and Mexicans(Rikárdó, Eszmeralda), nowadays the Turkish soap operas are the cool ones(I don't remember any right now but I see in the town newspapers among the newborns.)
'They are indestructible.'
My oath they are; they're also vectors of disease.
'So you can see how do I know that much about them.'
Indeed--you should consider putting all this into a proper poast.
It's interesting and v healthy that there is a list of approved names in Hungary. The ones you mention are v funny and I think somehwat different in their range (if not their spirit) from those used in Romania. The missus' mum worked in public hospitals for many years and has seen/heard it all.
'I would say that at least 700.000.'
THIS MANY? Is that tribal Gypsies only, or 'assimilated' half-breeds included? I was trying to be cautious in my own estimate but it's pretty obvious that there must be at least a million tribal Rom in Romania--and I do mean AT LEAST...
'if someone could get away with it, they would rather keep their ancestry as a secret. Except if they rise high enough because it's not low and ewww anymore, but special, exotic etc..'
It's the same here more or less. One difference maybe is that there's a sort of informal 'don't ask, don't tell' policy. If you don't act like a Gypsy, you're acceptable in most company.
Great comments as usual--thanx
Oh...certainly. Remember that I seen once of the subway that Hungary was put back as hepatitis dangerous(or something like that) country. Not long before that my hometown had a full blown hepatitis pandemic with hundreds of cases. But there's always something going on there.
I wanted to collect and write about these things(as I said...it's a little bit of taboo over here), but that will need to be more organised. And also some scientific background/theory possibly. Might use tidbits from here tho.
In the 90's it was estimated to be 500k. Their number only grew, but the self identification of the romungros doesn't help. And also as I mentioned, they are a very mixed group so you might only notice with some after they start talking. We also didn't export them. (I think one of the main reasons why the emigration from Hungary was a little bit lighter, because the language is that different and you have to learn a wholly new system. Many leftists still blaming the right for the tragic numbers, but looking at the other post-commie countries we're pretty good.)
To be honest, the Beás(bayash, baiash, banyash) are the ones I know the least about. They're mostly in the Transdanubia. I do speak sometimes with a homeless guy who is always crowding by the church I go to every sunday. He and his friends are kinda little too and when he spoke with his wife I didn't understand it. (I can't speak lovari at all, but I once freaked out some Oláhs who were talking me out that I understand what they are saying. I would say I get 50% percent what they are saying that can go up to 70-80% with context...I'm digressing again). They actually work sometimes for the city public sanitation moving and gathering the trash. And generally they "make a living"/get earnings from filtering through others refuse/trash. That's what I meant with bottom-feeders. Now with the new bottle return system their job got harder tho. So by your description I think they might have been Beás.
The mixing part is always hard to tell. What is sure, that there was and is. The romungros almost never look fully gypsy. The Oláh's and Beás generally have a darker skin color too.
I think I will return to the prostitution part because they build a whole industry with it.
But with the not gypsy looking kids. One of the prostitutes got together with a chinese because she said that the kid is his and he accepted. They don't live together but with family reunion he got an EU citizenship and always bring his "family" good stuff because he's doing business. While the kid is clearly not his. How do I know? Because there is another who is clearly asian...lol. There is also a black(african) gypsy who...looks african(you couldn't tell that his mother is one). Also my mother said that the african is the smartest in his class. That raises additional questions. (Well...it is just a single instance so not that much)
Same happened with hepatitis here! Ten years ago or so a doctor told me that 1 in 5 people had it...
'my mother said that the african is the smartest in his class. That raises additional questions'
Maybe the father is some manner of WAKANDAN SUPER-IGBO!
(a bunch of crap apparently: https://www.cremieux.xyz/p/the-myth-of-nigerian-excellence)
For a last one here, I put this because I think this is where it fits the subject. Yes, it's a meme video. The translation is correct from the original(and this way someone who knows english can understand it too) which you can quickly find.
https://youtu.be/AdYOiNSq4O0?si=bDEuoSioSVZPGtvo
This is...when a gypsy tells you (mostly) the truth. You can never believe them fully. Everything is exaggerated, whatever they say must be divided by 10 and you will be closer to reality.
(And also observe...Leonidas...300...they will stop the enemy...I'm not sure how conscious that was.)
Christ, that neck! This escalated really quickly. Seriously, though: this topic does make me somewhat uncomfortable -- I suppose I've just been conditioned that way -- yet it explains a great deal about the "Roma" population in Hungary, too, as I have seen many of the traits, trends, and tribulations among the locals related to what you describe (and break down in excruciating detail, I might add!)
As I'm sure I said before, these intermarrying trends are perhaps on the rise here in Magyaroszág, but most of the magyarok (Hungarians) are really at odds with their culture. It is odd, however, that they do not wish to speak of this reality except behind closed doors and oft-exchanged pained glances and moments of mutual agreement.
On the flipside, I must draw attention to certain segments of the local "Roma" population that have indeed integrated and donned Hungarian values, I imagine much to the chagrin of their peers. These conversations are not difficult to overhear and seem to happen often in public spaces. The Roma who, in fact, do exhibit conformism to the 'seven Cs' are growing, but the other kind are still ubiquitous in the country's more dangerous areas, some of which even exist in the capital. And while it is anecdotal, I really cannot stress how many daily interactions I've had with both groups, making this issue somewhat confounding. Still, I'll not lie: I share the sentiments of the Hungarians themselves for the most part; which is to say that I worry about the impact the Roma who separate themselves and are undoubtedly responsible for all of the crime occurring in Eastern Hungary -- or so I'm told.
On an interactional level I try to be kind, but a vigilant eye discerning certain realities is not to be cast off so lightly.
Thank you sir for reading and commenting so thoughtfully
Yes I think Gypsies are the same everywhere in the most important respects: moral particularism/us vs them/thieving & lying--things like that...
Equally, as you say, there are Gypsies everywhere who leave the group, intermarry and assimilate culturally (normally to the lowest common denominator). Some, however, dress in mufti and drop the Gypsy speech ticks but otherwise remain tribal by allegiance. This has the effect of blurring perceptions of who is committed to the host population and who is not, engendering in turn *even lower* interpersonal trust among the general populace. This at least is my theory; I have no way of testing it. Are Hungarians low on social trust among themselves too? Is there a lot of Gypsy music in the ether?
In my opinion, EU membership has been an unmitigated qualitative L for Romania. It has massively lowered the tone by handing pop cultural hegemony over to the Gypsies and, for lack of worthier models, distorted Romanian mores. Some rightists are apt to sniff at 'pop culture'; but it matters to the masses, and if rightists care about them it should matter to rightists too. Pop culture is never high culture, but trying to raise the tone of the former is an objective worth pursuing.
In my reckoning it would have been socially more desirable had the barriers remained up, though I find it hard to hold anything against against individuals who wish to adopt 'enlightened' postmodern ugliness in place of benighted premodern ugliness. If nothing else, I sympathise with their disorientation. But racial mixing is still ugly to the emotional part of my brain, and I am saddened when I see its results. There's so much of it, and it seems only to be intensifying.
It's not easy to respond to this partly because outwardly I don't really talk about it or care about these people on a basic level. They're just kind of *there*. However uncomfortable it may make me or "us" (us being "Hungarians", I suppose) feel, however, yes -- there is an unknown quality to their "allegiance" in a greater sense.
The Hungarians I move with are high on social trust on an intrapersonal level. They live in tight-knit communities, value family highly, and show mutual respect for each other.
They regard almost all Gypsies with the utmost cynicism, prejudice, and irreverent humour. They will rarely if ever talk about these realities in polite company, and in some circles, doing so is considered gauche. Since men don't necessarily fall into the category of "polite company" (conversations tend to be more honest and can even get dark), I've had a lot of banter with locals where they will freely admit they abhor the Gypsies, and will trust them with absolutely nothing.
In some ways, this dynamic mirrors the dynamics I grew up around regarding the native population in NZ, who make up approximately fifteen percent of the population and fifty-two percent of the prison population. But... socioeconomics, mirite? (remember when the leftists bandied that term around endlessly?)
Perhaps the single starkest difference is that Hungary is interested in no way in catering to the Gypsies, whereas New Zealand has bent over backwards for the Maoris since the beginning of my lifetime. These two groups are extremely disparate also. The Maori people have a tonne of redeemable qualities, while the Gypsies -- at least the unintegrated ones -- not so much. The vast majority of the ones I know to be integrated are women, anyway; this is unsurprising, IMO, since women tend to be more socially adaptive. As always, it is the men who have a proclivity for the bad stuff, as is the case with any demographic to varying degrees.
On a fundamental level, I have no problem with "racial mixing." I nearly married an Indian girl back in the day, and I don't really have any thoughts about it being ugly -- that's just the truth. One of the things I like the most about this post is the honesty without malice; I come to Substack in some ways to escape the endless lying, peacocking, and status games that are present in just about everyone's lives. In short, it's nice to speak plainly with people who write well and don't believe in ridiculous ideas that are characteristic of their failures in life.
In many ways, I see "race-mixing" it as an unproductive thing to care about: we still live in a society, certain trends are popular, and my introspective thoughts about them are irrelevant. People will do what they do; what we are witnessing now in these terms is just a marker of liberal societies in the modern age (something even Romania and Hungary couldn't escape.)
Perhaps interestingly, I see American cultural Imperialism as the fundamental driver of all this. But that's a long, long conversation -- one suited to a forthcoming essay I'll be writing, no doubt.
As always, the exchange is appreciated, good Achilles. (:
'They regard almost all Gypsies with the utmost cynicism, prejudice, and irreverent humour. They will rarely if ever talk about these realities in polite company, and in some circles, doing so is considered gauche.'
In Romania the vast majority of people, not excluding 'liberals', talk freely to anybody about their dislike of and contempt for the Gypsies. The difference with Hungary is interesting, especially because Hungary is supposed to be the European bastion of based. To me divergences in attitudes of this sort suggest underlying civilisational differences. Hungary is basically Western, meaning maintenance of the 'moral community' (achieved by shunning open consensus-dissenters) is important. Romania is not Western, so that stuff doesn't matter.
'The vast majority of the ones I know to be integrated are women, anyway; this is unsurprising, IMO, since women tend to be more socially adaptive. As always, it is the men who have a proclivity for the bad stuff, as is the case with any demographic to varying degrees.'
Yes it's the same here.
'As always, the exchange is appreciated, good Achilles. (:'
Likewise; thanks again
"Romania is not Western, so that stuff doesn't matter." -- Hungary is very close genetically and culturally to the Balkans. Sharp Western/Eastern divide is Huntingtonian ignorance.
Eppur si muove...
"EU membership has been an unmitigated qualitative L for Romania" -- Yes, because if Romania would have not entered in the EU like Serbia and Ukraine they would have totally whipped out Czechoslovak-style-forced sterilization and nobody could have forced them otherwise.
Just look at based Russia that is not in the EU, not even in NATO. No immigration, no cultural and genetic assimilation of Caucasians and Central Asians etc.
How can you think that without the EU all this wouldn't have happened even FASTER (more gypsies would have stayed in place rather than emigrate)?
'How can you think that without the EU all this wouldn't have happened even FASTER (more gypsies would have stayed in place rather than emigrate)?'
I think it's a question of the much greater resources--thus wealth--made available to them by access to W Europe. Poast after this one covers it.
Btw, I have noticed that many NGO prog causes are sponsored by the triad or Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein. I will repeat myself, but the EU is not inherently the problem, not even "leftism" (see the Czechoslovakian example).
"Anti-racism" is the Zeitgeist ideology. It's much larger than the EU.
And I think you are completely wrong. The access to Western markets that happened in the post-2000s and consequently the economic growth made the deal SWEETER. Prosperity and a modicum of personal freedom make multiculturalism easier to bear in the long-term, not harder. Look at European (statist) vs. the USian (liberal) model and see that, despite lower immigration %, the US is dealing better with "coexistence" than W. Europe. Or even better, look at Russia that brilliantly managed to combine the WORSE of BOTH worlds: no borders with Central Asia and the Caucasus, no significant increase in prosperity beyond Moscow and St. Petersburg compared to the EU part of CEE coupled with a much higher crackdown on dissident speech (and deeds).
There's nothing striking about Djuvara's deed. He went from a far-right sympathizer in his youth to a staunch supporter of anti-national causes. "Trad", lol.
My impression--I could be wrong--is that he became an ecumenical Traditionalist (ie Perennialist) in the Huxleyan/Guenonian sense: 'we're all one in the one and the one is love'. Perennialists regard nationalism as a product of the fall from gold to bronze to iron (alt. Kali Yuga) or whatever.
I stand corrected of course if I've mischaraterised his beliefs. But either way he was a sell-out.